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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 01:05

Thanks for the link. Saw Nadolo on my home pitch a few years ago which was cool. A little jealous as they actually trim the grass for the pros. Guessing it's a lower tier opponent (Russia?).

At least the place is full, but you'd hope a full test could draw 20,000 rather than 3,000. Tim Powers is an Ottawa transplant so he likely helps get games in Ottawa. My bet is that TERP charges $0 too.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 01:37

If it's anything like Ellerslie I imagine the small venue helps them save on advertising as well. It's a pity that Spain is pushing pastus in terms of attendance, ranking, and overall quality. If I had said that in 2014 you'd all have laughed at me.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 01:58

marvinparsons wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Any idea what type of crowd they would likely get?


I'm betting they don't get over 10k. Rugby Canada must really not want to make money or they couldn't afford a stadium rental in Ontario.

I'm really hoping we don't qualify for the WC, is that bad of me? I desperately want the Sevens Gravy Train to end. You know it's a sad day when Rugby Canada are pushing Nathan Hirayama as a bigger star than Tyler Ardron, DTH and Jeff Hassler.

It's all good though, I've got my replacement fix with TWP for the summer, games have been a cracker so far and the big match against Toulouse is in a few weeks.


I don't think you need to hope...I don't see how we get out of the repechage.

Unfortunately I think missing the RWC would lead to more emphasis on sevens! Powers said it's unfair to judge solely based on men's 15s and they talk up the stupid sevens all the time. Sevens is a neat carnival, but honestly it sucks. It's boring. I don't know anyone that enjoys it.


It's not a money maker and the entire thing is funded by 15s. Read World Rugby financials, Sevens makes ZERO money for WR!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:18

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Any idea what type of crowd they would likely get?


I'm betting they don't get over 10k. Rugby Canada must really not want to make money or they couldn't afford a stadium rental in Ontario.

I'm really hoping we don't qualify for the WC, is that bad of me? I desperately want the Sevens Gravy Train to end. You know it's a sad day when Rugby Canada are pushing Nathan Hirayama as a bigger star than Tyler Ardron, DTH and Jeff Hassler.

It's all good though, I've got my replacement fix with TWP for the summer, games have been a cracker so far and the big match against Toulouse is in a few weeks.


I don't think you need to hope...I don't see how we get out of the repechage.

Unfortunately I think missing the RWC would lead to more emphasis on sevens! Powers said it's unfair to judge solely based on men's 15s and they talk up the stupid sevens all the time. Sevens is a neat carnival, but honestly it sucks. It's boring. I don't know anyone that enjoys it.


It's not a money maker and the entire thing is funded by 15s. Read World Rugby financials, Sevens makes ZERO money for WR!


7s is definitely a Loss Leader overall when you consider how much money is spent on national teams. World Rugby isn't losing any money on the HSBC 7s series as it sells operating licenses to Unions or private partners. But, does it make money? Hong Kong, London, Vegas, and Vancouver...but it took 8 years for UWS to turn a profit on Vegas...they haven't made back much...and if they lose the stop they'll have lost a lot overall.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:37

TheStroBro wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Any idea what type of crowd they would likely get?


I'm betting they don't get over 10k. Rugby Canada must really not want to make money or they couldn't afford a stadium rental in Ontario.

I'm really hoping we don't qualify for the WC, is that bad of me? I desperately want the Sevens Gravy Train to end. You know it's a sad day when Rugby Canada are pushing Nathan Hirayama as a bigger star than Tyler Ardron, DTH and Jeff Hassler.

It's all good though, I've got my replacement fix with TWP for the summer, games have been a cracker so far and the big match against Toulouse is in a few weeks.


I don't think you need to hope...I don't see how we get out of the repechage.

Unfortunately I think missing the RWC would lead to more emphasis on sevens! Powers said it's unfair to judge solely based on men's 15s and they talk up the stupid sevens all the time. Sevens is a neat carnival, but honestly it sucks. It's boring. I don't know anyone that enjoys it.


It's not a money maker and the entire thing is funded by 15s. Read World Rugby financials, Sevens makes ZERO money for WR!


7s is definitely a Loss Leader overall when you consider how much money is spent on national teams. World Rugby isn't losing any money on the HSBC 7s series as it sells operating licenses to Unions or private partners. But, does it make money? Hong Kong, London, Vegas, and Vancouver...but it took 8 years for UWS to turn a profit on Vegas...they haven't made back much...and if they lose the stop they'll have lost a lot overall.


This is what people do not understand ref Sevens. The game has never made a profit, ever. Hosting a tournament only slightly offsets the costs of running the National Programs, all of which are funded by World Rugby money, money they get from RWC. If it weren't for RWC, all these wonderful programs and tournaments: HSBC Sevens, Americas Rugby Championship, Pacific Nations Cup, High Performance Rugby Programs, etc... None of it would exist.

Last years WR Sevens Revenue was only £20 million for World Rugby, and it cost them more to run the thing when you take in to consideration they underwrite the expenses of most of the Nations participating. It's a game with very limited commercial value.

Edit:

Rumour right now is Toronto Wolfpack are closing in on a high profile union crossover signing. Wondering if they are bringing in a Canadian National Team player?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 15:27

Buffalo wrote:Commonwealth seats like 54k so they will need to market the hell out of this and hope for the biggest crowd in Canadian history to make it look presentable. The Eskimos average like 34k fans a game and it still looks a mess on TV. I also looked at schedules and TD, BMO and Tim Hortons have nothing going on that day from what I saw. I highly doubt Commonwealth costs less to rent than those three so it's a peculiar and ambitious choice. I thought it was reported we're also having a T2/T3 European team(originally Germany) and the USA coming as well. I expect Ontario to get the Yanks and Euros. Though if it's Spain coming over I'd like to see them play in Quebec.

My guess for our June schedule
June 9th: vs Scotland @ Commonwealth Stadium - Edmonton
June 16th: vs Euro TBA @ random small rugby park in Ontario
June 23rd: vs USA @ Tim Horton's/TD Place - Hamilton/Ottawa


Now that BMO field host both TFC and the Argos, I don't think they'll be hosting many more tests, just due to the wear & tear on the field.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 15:44

grande wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Commonwealth seats like 54k so they will need to market the hell out of this and hope for the biggest crowd in Canadian history to make it look presentable. The Eskimos average like 34k fans a game and it still looks a mess on TV. I also looked at schedules and TD, BMO and Tim Hortons have nothing going on that day from what I saw. I highly doubt Commonwealth costs less to rent than those three so it's a peculiar and ambitious choice. I thought it was reported we're also having a T2/T3 European team(originally Germany) and the USA coming as well. I expect Ontario to get the Yanks and Euros. Though if it's Spain coming over I'd like to see them play in Quebec.

My guess for our June schedule
June 9th: vs Scotland @ Commonwealth Stadium - Edmonton
June 16th: vs Euro TBA @ random small rugby park in Ontario
June 23rd: vs USA @ Tim Horton's/TD Place - Hamilton/Ottawa


Now that BMO field host both TFC and the Argos, I don't think they'll be hosting many more tests, just due to the wear & tear on the field.


Too bad because it's legit a great field to watch a game, especially after the renovations. I've been to four matches there: Canada vs Ireland, Canada vs Scotland, Canada vs NZ Maori and Canada vs Italy. It's so much better than sitting in a shithole that is Twin Elm! Kingston's new Stadium would be a major step up from that place:

Image

Twin Elm is legitimately a dump, you can't even drink the water there. There are no working washrooms, it's an embarrassment to the sport.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 05:03

[/quote]

Rumour right now is Toronto Wolfpack are closing in on a high profile union crossover signing. Wondering if they are bringing in a Canadian National Team player?[/quote]

Not interested. League is just a big game of red rover, red rover. Toronto can have it

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 10:24

The only reason it should be if interest to you is imagine if they signed two or three of our best players. They just signed Gareth O'Brien from Salford and outbid both Warrington and Castleford paying a very large transfer fee.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 12:38

The other reason is that all their games are covered on CBC, are streamed free nation wide, and they are out drawing Rugby Union in this country. I mean yes they give away free tickets and they have a sugar daddy, but that should still be a serious concern. We've talked a lot about drawing serious athletes, and honestly if TWP came calling and offered an actual pay cheque with a professional environment it's going to be a touch sell for Rugby Canada.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby GentsRugger » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 01:30

I hope all the Union guys in Ontario that are supporting the Wolfpack just because its the only pro rugby we currently have in Canada are also going to support the Ontario Arrows. They look primed to be our first pro Union team in Canada and I think if they get into the MLR they'll be competitive. A draw with Houston a week or so ago is impressive if you consider that Houston is a true pro side with multiple games under their belt and the Arrows haven't practiced together all that much.
If the Arrows are successful there won't be much concern about losing players to League as the Union players will finally have a option to go pro in Union right here. Won't need to switch codes to go pro...the Wolfpack has only signed 1 or 2 guys born and raised in Canada anyways.
Maybe the CRC will actually mean something for once too...guys will actually be playing for a chance at a pro contract.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 01:47

It may come down to money then. If the Wolfpack have better finances then they can easily lure players over. The only saving grace for rugby will be the national team and the Rugby World Cup. A lot of our rugby talent could easily make a healthy living playing in the NRL or Super League but the lure of the Wallaby jersey and the RWC prevents a lot of them making the switch. There is a real envy from the RL community about the RWC, a number of high profile players have nearly made the switch to the 15's game because of its international appeal over the last 20 years, especially after the 2003 World Cup. The Wolfpack might be able to earn them money, but it can't offer the same type of international exposure, so I guess it's up to the individual player what they value most.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 01:49

GentsRugger wrote:I hope all the Union guys in Ontario that are supporting the Wolfpack just because its the only pro rugby we currently have in Canada are also going to support the Ontario Arrows. They look primed to be our first pro Union team in Canada and I think if they get into the MLR they'll be competitive. A draw with Houston a week or so ago is impressive if you consider that Houston is a true pro side with multiple games under their belt and the Arrows haven't practiced together all that much.
If the Arrows are successful there won't be much concern about losing players to League as the Union players will finally have a option to go pro in Union right here. Won't need to switch codes to go pro...the Wolfpack has only signed 1 or 2 guys born and raised in Canada anyways.
Maybe the CRC will actually mean something for once too...guys will actually be playing for a chance at a pro contract.


Well it sounds like the CRC will be taking a back seat to a national club championship. Either way i agree, playing for your club and a career should mean an increase in general fucks given. Hopefully Ontario gets into MLR along with a vancouver based side in 2019.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 03:34

They going to have an obvious advantage over the Wolfpack in that MLR will be an domestic competition where travel is going to be less of an issue, plus a good chunk of the squads will be local talent.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby GentsRugger » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 03:43

thatrugbyguy wrote:They going to have an obvious advantage over the Wolfpack in that MLR will be an domestic competition where travel is going to be less of an issue, plus a good chunk of the squads will be local talent.

Exactly this, I think the pathway to playing professional rugby for Ontarians or even Canadians is quite a bit easier if they choose to pursue the Arrows than the Wolfpack. That's why I don't worry too much about Union losing their players to league...as long as Canadian teams get into the MLR.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 04:05

Hopefully it's not just Ontario and Vancouver. MLR seem to be aiming for 16 teams in the next few years granted things run smoothly. No reason Canada couldn't support at least 3 clubs.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 04:09

[quote="Canadian_Rugger"]

Image

Nice little stadium. Any reason it couldn't be used?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 10:08

GentsRugger wrote:I hope all the Union guys in Ontario that are supporting the Wolfpack just because its the only pro rugby we currently have in Canada are also going to support the Ontario Arrows. They look primed to be our first pro Union team in Canada and I think if they get into the MLR they'll be competitive. A draw with Houston a week or so ago is impressive if you consider that Houston is a true pro side with multiple games under their belt and the Arrows haven't practiced together all that much.
If the Arrows are successful there won't be much concern about losing players to League as the Union players will finally have a option to go pro in Union right here. Won't need to switch codes to go pro...the Wolfpack has only signed 1 or 2 guys born and raised in Canada anyways.
Maybe the CRC will actually mean something for once too...guys will actually be playing for a chance at a pro contract.


I'll support the Arrows when and if they join MLR. I'm also curious where they will be playing Stadium wise? I like both codes of Rugby but right now I don't see a lot of business ambition coming from the Canadian Rugby community. The Wolfpack have ambition, have money, have their games on TV and free streaming, have national media coverage, they are making all the right moves. This season is a weird one as Lamport is under renovations so they are playing all their away games at the front end; however, next season they will be playing in 4 game blocks again and they have a very good chance at making Super League which means they won't be paying for travel anymore, will receive TV money.

GentsRugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:They going to have an obvious advantage over the Wolfpack in that MLR will be an domestic competition where travel is going to be less of an issue, plus a good chunk of the squads will be local talent.

Exactly this, I think the pathway to playing professional rugby for Ontarians or even Canadians is quite a bit easier if they choose to pursue the Arrows than the Wolfpack. That's why I don't worry too much about Union losing their players to league...as long as Canadian teams get into the MLR.


So I'm not so much worried about losing the average Canadian player to the Wolfpack, what I am worried about is losing the few marquee tier 1 level professionals we do have to this team. Think Jeff Hassler, Tyler Ardron, DTH Van Der Merwe, Taylor Paris. The Wolfpack only needs to poach one or two of them with a comparable contract to cause a major disturbance to the National team. From a professional sports/income perspective it would be pretty lucrative for them.

Think about DTH, he is done with Newcastle this season, only has a few years of good rugby left. He receives an offer from the Wolfpack. I heard Glasgow is interested in reacquiring him but we know that Pro12 salaries aren't great and the Wolfpack can match and exceed whatever they offer. He doesn't have to move as the Wolfpack base their training camp in Manchester during the off-season, he gets paid more, he becomes a regular feature on Canadian television and he is a bonafide Canadian star which opens up access to sponsorships, promotional work, etc which is where athletes make a lot of money. Jamie Cudmore became a household name in Clermont and was able to do this and he is rich, way richer than any other Canadian player that has ever suited up. End of the day, money talks, will see what happens but it's interesting times.

I for one am sick of Rugby Canada, Rugby Ontario, Provincial Unions, etc and love the competition. The whole establishment needs a good shake up.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 13:55

thatrugbyguy wrote:Hopefully it's not just Ontario and Vancouver. MLR seem to be aiming for 16 teams in the next few years granted things run smoothly. No reason Canada couldn't support at least 3 clubs.


I think having two off the start at the same time would be huge. Twice the teams but I think you'd get more than twice the attention.

Canadian_Rugger wrote:So I'm not so much worried about losing the average Canadian player to the Wolfpack, what I am worried about is losing the few marquee tier 1 level professionals we do have to this team. Think Jeff Hassler, Tyler Ardron, DTH Van Der Merwe, Taylor Paris. The Wolfpack only needs to poach one or two of them with a comparable contract to cause a major disturbance to the National team. From a professional sports/income perspective it would be pretty lucrative for them.

...

I for one am sick of Rugby Canada, Rugby Ontario, Provincial Unions, etc and love the competition. The whole establishment needs a good shake up.


I get that feeling. I barely watch our NT games anymore, since we almost always lose. If I had a local pro team I could just watch them and not care if Canada sucks.

My concern isn't players switching- the odd one will, and yes it will be a victory for RL, but I don't think it will impact the broader game that much. It's capturing the average newbie sports fan. I am so excited for MLR to come to Ontario, and will absolutely support the Arrows as much as I can. So far they haven't done much that would get a non-rugby person aware and interested. I know it's early days, but they will 100% be compared to TWP, who unfortunately are great at marketing, and have been successful in giving a good game day experience. Even if the Arrows manage to do the exact same thing, they'll have to deal with the stigma of following after TWP. For example, home field... we don't know yet, and if it's Lamport which would probably make the most sense, they'll be "copying" TWP.

Now, this being an "exhibition year", more focussed on building their team and staff, is understandable. But I think once it's official that they're an MLR expansion team, they need to start doing their absolute best to out-promote TWP (would also need MLR to be looking relatively successful I suppose).

I absolutely NOT worried about the quality of play, or the differences between the codes, making a huge difference to the success of the Arrows. First, there's a ton of existing rugby union fans who do know the difference and are still union fans and players because they just like it better.
Secondly, the RL theory that North American audiences will fall in love with RL for it's "speed, simplicity, and similarity to football", is pretty much bullshit. The limited tackles, and smaller number of players, are in my opinion the only way that RL is more similar than RU to football. Union and football both have breaks in play, organized and competitive set pieces, and have the whole "mental chess game" aspect to them, that I think make it easy enough to get into once you get past the initial learning the rules phase.
Thirdly, none of that will matter in comparison to the game day experience. If casual fans are going to a game of a new sport they don't know the rules of, then it won't matter what game that was if they had a great time there. That's by far going to make the biggest difference.
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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:17

Ontario Arrows will play out of York University.

https://ontarioarrowsrugby.com/2018/03/ ... ome-venue/

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 16:56

The TWP have thrown a major wrench in any Toronto teams plans. The average fan doesn't even know the difference between league and union. It is all just "rugby." Union does have a nice advantage as about half the fanbase are likely union people.

On the flipside TWP got in first, have name recognition, play in an established league, have deep pockets, the appeal of exotic foreign rugby players and appear to be extremely well run in all facets. Truly first class.

Do the Arrows have the managerial and marketing acumen and the deep pockets to overcome some of their disadvantages? That is a question that remains to be seen, though it is worth noting it is the same people that have managed the Ontario Blues, who while a decent enough rugby team, haven't done anything to distinguish themselves from the clusterfuck that is Canadian rugby. At this point I simply don't have faith in anyone in this country that has been heavily involved in administering rugby to do a good job. The results (in most areas, not all) speak for themselves. That said I applaud them for trying something different and hope they are a success. Ideally the team would serve as a hub and orientation point for all rugby in Eastern Canada and could help obliterate the power of Rugby Canada/provincial unions.

For the guy that asked about playing test matches in Kingston, the problem is that Kingston is a small city of only 130,000 and isn't super close to any other major population centers. I saw Tonga there years ago and it was a good but not great crowd. Tough ask to reliably sell out games there for a good price IMO.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 17:12

marvinparsons wrote:Do the Arrows have the managerial and marketing acumen and the deep pockets to overcome some of their disadvantages? That is a question that remains to be seen, though it is worth noting it is the same people that have managed the Ontario Blues, who while a decent enough rugby team, haven't done anything to distinguish themselves from the clusterfuck that is Canadian rugby. At this point I simply don't have faith in anyone in this country that has been heavily involved in administering rugby to do a good job. The results (in most areas, not all) speak for themselves. That said I applaud them for trying something different and hope they are a success. Ideally the team would serve as a hub and orientation point for all rugby in Eastern Canada and could help obliterate the power of Rugby Canada/provincial unions.


They keep saying privately funded, but has anyone heard who is actually behind the money? I think that'll be the key to having this be a bit of a success- whoever is paying for it all is going to want to make something back, and should hopefully put a good team in place. Ideally nobody from RC/RO.

York University is interesting, Rugby Canada have played there in the past. The field looks pretty small though, scaling it off of Google I get 110m by 60m to the very edges of the grass.

Anyone been there to know what it's like?
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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 17:59

marvinparsons wrote:The TWP have thrown a major wrench in any Toronto teams plans. The average fan doesn't even know the difference between league and union. It is all just "rugby." Union does have a nice advantage as about half the fanbase are likely union people.

On the flipside TWP got in first, have name recognition, play in an established league, have deep pockets, the appeal of exotic foreign rugby players and appear to be extremely well run in all facets. Truly first class.

Do the Arrows have the managerial and marketing acumen and the deep pockets to overcome some of their disadvantages? That is a question that remains to be seen, though it is worth noting it is the same people that have managed the Ontario Blues, who while a decent enough rugby team, haven't done anything to distinguish themselves from the clusterfuck that is Canadian rugby. At this point I simply don't have faith in anyone in this country that has been heavily involved in administering rugby to do a good job. The results (in most areas, not all) speak for themselves. That said I applaud them for trying something different and hope they are a success. Ideally the team would serve as a hub and orientation point for all rugby in Eastern Canada and could help obliterate the power of Rugby Canada/provincial unions.

For the guy that asked about playing test matches in Kingston, the problem is that Kingston is a small city of only 130,000 and isn't super close to any other major population centers. I saw Tonga there years ago and it was a good but not great crowd. Tough ask to reliably sell out games there for a good price IMO.


At the end of the day though, I would imagine that only 1-2 years of a head start over the Arrows is not enough to cripple them. You don't suggest this at all but there are people who basically act like this head start means that Toronto is now a League town and all is lost for Union.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:57

I don't think it is a league vs union thing, I think it is a rugby vs rugby thing, because for a lot of TWP fans there's no difference.

If the Arrows can be viable than I have little doubt that they can fend off the TWP/league. But for new sports leagues the "becoming viable" part of the equation is extraordinarily difficult. I believe certain rules with regards to anti-trust/competition don't even apply to sports leagues, the basis being that they are nearly impossible to sustain financially. Gaining a foothold is the battle, that's why money is so important: you need to come out fully formed, guns blazing, to build a fanbase. That requires a lot of investment and a willingness to eat loses.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:49

marvinparsons wrote:I don't think it is a league vs union thing, I think it is a rugby vs rugby thing, because for a lot of TWP fans there's no difference.


That's exactly what I was getting at. It would be the same if TO had say a Pro12 team. Except then the 2nd team wouldn't even try, but in this case they are.

It would be like if a box lacrosse team and a field lacrosse team set up shop within a year of each other in Manchester. The particular type of lacrosse would be pretty far down the list.
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