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Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 09:30

How can you say the only real poacher is New Zealand when other unions openly talk about 'project players', contracted by franchises only with the goal of them becoming capped?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 10:19

Armchair Fan wrote:How can you say the only real poacher is New Zealand when other unions openly talk about 'project players', contracted by franchises only with the goal of them becoming capped?


Yeah, Bundee Aki and CJ Stander are the quintessential poaches.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 10:24

Armchair Fan wrote:How can you say the only real poacher is New Zealand when other unions openly talk about 'project players', contracted by franchises only with the goal of them becoming capped?


Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I was referring to tier 1 teams poaching players from tier 2 countries. I know there are plenty of tier 1 countries poaching players from other tier 1 countries, and even tier 2 teams poaching tier 1 players or other tier 2 countries. But the only real losers in that are the native born players who don't get to play for their country.

But that wasn't even my main point. For example, a player, born and raised in Fiji, moves to New Zealand in his late teens, sponsored to play rugby, and eventually plays for the All Blacks but doesn't become a regular player. Should he be able to retire from the All Blacks and after a period of time be eligible to play for Fiji? Or, if he's made his choice and chosen New Zealand, should that be final? Of course if he plays for Fiji he is denying another player that opportunity. I am probably not in favour of players switching nation, and with the 5 year residency rule now in place I don't think poaching will happen anymore. There might be a few 30 year old Fijians now with some regrets now but Fiji's lack of success is more down to coaching, fitness and poor gameplans than it is to do with poaching in my opinion. They do not have a lack of talent, they just tend not to make the most of the talent they have.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 10:43

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:How can you say the only real poacher is New Zealand when other unions openly talk about 'project players', contracted by franchises only with the goal of them becoming capped?


Yeah, Bundee Aki and CJ Stander are the quintessential poaches.


Yes, Ireland's incredible World Cup successes, and New Zealand's and South Africa's lack of trophies is the result of this dastardly poaching.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 17:00

victorsra wrote:Why are you saying poaching?

Sincerely, I dont know yet these two new players backgrounds. But 100% of players Brazil brought recently from Argentina are sons of Brazilians: Stefano Giantorno, Yan Rosetti and Caique Silva. Cbru's policy has been the sons of the diaspora. Sancerys, Bourda-Couhet, Massari, Dell'Acqua, Fiori, Harvey, all sons of Brazilians... And Reeves came to Brasil because he married a Brazilian. So, not random "poach".


Neither Moreno and Ramirez have any Brazilian background. Both start to play in the little Villa General Belgrano RC, later go to Jockey Club of Villa María ... both play to Dogos U19, and one of them also was a Pladar player. Play in the Cup of Nations 2016 (Córdoba, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil) ...

Then they received a proposal to go to perform a test to play in the Tupis, and if they were selected, the CBRu would then determine in which clubs they would play. Obviously they were selected, and knowing that they would to play on different clubs by CBRu decision, requested that the teams be close (one went to Sao Jose and the other to Jacareí, 13km away).

Two other players (namely Juan and Brain, I don't know his surnames) started in Villa General Belgrano at the same time as Moreno and Ramírez, also with a subsequent past at Jockey Club also started playing in Brazil in 2019... we will see if in the future they also do it for the Tupis.

At least this case, clearly is poaching. I don't make an ethical interpretation of the case, only what happened (the information was extracted from a radio interview with both players).

Note: Both parents of Giantorno are argentines and Silva and Rosetti has a argentine father and a brazilian mother.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 17:34

But Giantorno was born in Brazil, as the Sancerys. I believe Silva and Rosetti also born in Brazil. I interviewed and I know them, but honestly don't remember. All the cases I listed the players have only one parent (mother or father) Brazilian. I believe nobody has both. But doesn't realy matter as they have heritage anyway. Most of them have Brazilian mothers: Bourda-Couhet, Harvey, Rosetti, Massari and Dell'Acqua... maybe only Fiori is Brazilian by father.

Moreno and Ramirez came to Brazil when Ambrosio was the coach, so maybe he had some influence, specialy because he is Cordobese. And probably they woudn't play for Los Pumas, so.... poach sounds the country that lost them misses them... but this is not the first time this happens. De Wet Van Niekerk and Devon Muller, both South Africans, came to Brazil to try a professional career. No Brazilian heritage. I believe these are the only players with such case (no heritage, that came to play rugby).

Beukes Cremer, the other South African that came to Brazil and played for the Tupis, arrived here to work outside rugby. It was just an opportunity that appeared after he was here. The same case for Will Broderick, an English that played for Brazil too. And Reeves is what I said.

As you know, Fiori, Harvey and Cremer are not with the Tupis anymore, just listed to be fair.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:12, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 17:39

Sorry, I believe Giantorno has Brazilian mother: https://atarde.uol.com.br/esportes/noti ... ime-brasil He was born in Rio and moved to Argentina as a kid: http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/player/282839.html

Anyway, if we look, randomly, at the Braziian squad that beat Chile in the 2019 ARC, for exemple, 15 are products of Brazilian junior club rugby and 8 started rugby abroad (7 of those 8 with Brazilian families). Of the 15 already anounced by Corinthians, 11 are products of our junior club rugby as well.

This shows very well the scenario. It is definitly NOT TRUE our clubs don't produce talented junior players. But we lack numbers and use mostly the diaspora to fill the gaps, with a couple of ("poached" or not-poached) exceptions.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:25

victorsra wrote:But Giantorno was born in Brazil, as the Sancerys. I believe Silva and Rosetti also born in Brazil. I interviewed and I know them, but honestly don't remember. All the cases I listed the players have only one parent (mother or father) Brazilian. I believe nobody has both. But doesn't realy matter as they have heritage anyway. Most of them have Brazilian mothers: Bourda-Couhet, Harvey, Rosetti, Massari and Dell'Acqua... maybe only Fiori is Brazilian by father.

Moreno and Ramirez came to Brazil when Ambrosio was the coach, so maybe he had some influence, specialy because he is Cordobese. And probably they woudn't play for Los Pumas, so.... poach sounds the country that lost them misses them... but this is not the first time this happens. De Wet Van Niekerk and Devon Muller, both South Africans, came to Brazil to try a professional career. No Brazilian heritage. I believe these are the only players with such case (no heritage, that came to play rugby).

Beukes Cremer, the other South African that came to Brazil and played for the Tupis, arrived here to work outside rugby. It was just an opportunity that appeared after he was here. The same case for Will Broderick, an English that player for Brazil too. And Reeves is what I said.

As you know, Fiori, Harvey and Cremer are not with the Tupis anymore, just listed to be fair.


I don't want you to get me wrong, that's why I said I didn't comment on the case from an ethical perspective. Just the fact, and they are free to do they want.

My foot note about Giantorno, Silva and Rosetti, was not about their eligibility, but because you say that they have Brazilian parents, it can be misunderstood by all the other thinking that both parents are from there and only came to live in Argentina, when that not is entirely true. But as you say, they were all born in Brazil, so I don't see the problem :thumbup:

Yes, I think Ambrosio is the connection with them, I don't know if they would play in Los Pumas or not (at least they played in the Cordoba team and even one was in the Pladar), but considering how things happened, I consider this as a poach, it was the CBRu who selected them and then gave they a club, that is, they went to play to the Tupís directly.


victorsra wrote:Sorry, I believe Giantorno has Brazilian mother: https://atarde.uol.com.br/esportes/noti ... ime-brasil He was born in Rio and moved to Argentina as a kid: http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/player/282839.html

Anyway, if we look, randomly, at the Braziian squad that beat Chile in the 2019 ARC, for exemple, 15 are products of Brazilian junior club rugby and 8 started rugby abroad (7 of those 8 with Brazilian families). Of the 15 already anounced by Corinthians, 11 are products of our junior club rugby as well.

This shows very well the scenario. It is definitly NOT TRUE our clubs don't produce talented junior players. But we lack numbers and use mostly the diaspora to fill the gaps, with a couple of ("poached" or not-poached) exceptions.


Both parents of Giantorno are argentines. ""I was born in Rio de Janeiro because my parents (Néstor and Graciela), for work, were there in the year 91. Then we returned to La Plata and we stayed"

https://www.eldia.com/nota/2016-8-5-ste ... -y-carioca

El Día is the journal of La Plata.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:31

This is not clear by by the sentence that both are. The other article says his mother is Brazilian (and by the name it can be true). I can ask him, but doesn't matter if she is or not, as he was born in Rio. And he was the one that searched for the Brazilian Rugby Union, sending an email presenting himfelf as Brazilian: https://www.espn.com.ar/rugby/nota/_/id ... con-brasil
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:41

victorsra wrote:This is not clear by by the sentence that both are. The other article says his mother is Brazilian (and by the name it can be true). I can ask him, but doesn't matter if she is or not, as he was born in Rio. And he was the one that searched for the Brazilian Rugby Union, sending an email presenting himfelf as Brazilian: https://www.espn.com.ar/rugby/nota/_/id ... con-brasil


Ask him, so we get the doubt away, only by curiosity, but, before overreacted, reread what I said, I'm not questioning the selection of any of them (I already explain my note). And yes, he sent an email as Silva did.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:43

Sorry, not wanting to overreact. Just making clear because this is a sensitive issue nowadays and you can see by our Chilean fellow poster that people are already starting to pose such questions.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:45

victorsra wrote:Sorry, not wanting to overreact. Just making clear because this is a sensitive issue nowadays and you can see by our Chilean fellow poster that people are already starting to pose such questions.


Why is delicate issue? In terms of Rugby or in other terms?

Oh, you edit, your comment. The 3 are perfectly selected.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:49

In rugby, because some countries do active poaching.

You can consider De Wet van Niekerk, Muller, Ramirez and Moreno poaches, because they had no previous connections to Brazil, but that's definitly not what happened with the other players. In other words, people look at Brazil and say "oh, their junior rugby is bad, therefore their national team is artificial". And that's not true. Obviously if we compare to Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, we are basicaly the only ones finding players abroad, but at least the approach is to search for the diaspora. And many of our key players are products of our junior rugby anyway. Not all of the key players, but most.

And we (Portal do Rugby) have been critics of the situation because this poses questions about the future, anyway.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:57

victorsra wrote:In rugby, because some countries do active poaching.

You can consider Ramirez and Moreno poaches, but that's definitly not what happened with the other players. In other words, people look at Brazil and say "oh, their junior rugby is bad, therefore their national team is artificial". And that's not true. Obviously if we compare to Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, we are basicaly the only ones finding players abroad, but at least the approach is to search for the diaspora.


I consider poach the action and how it happened in that case. I don't know if both players had the 36 consecutive months of residence, you obviously have more information, when they start to play in the Tupís? In the radio interview they said that in December 2017 they went to the practice, and later received a phone call than in March 2018 they had to be in Brazil.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:59

Hernan14 wrote:
victorsra wrote:In rugby, because some countries do active poaching.

You can consider Ramirez and Moreno poaches, but that's definitly not what happened with the other players. In other words, people look at Brazil and say "oh, their junior rugby is bad, therefore their national team is artificial". And that's not true. Obviously if we compare to Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, we are basicaly the only ones finding players abroad, but at least the approach is to search for the diaspora.


I consider poach the action and how it happened in that case. I don't know if both players had the 36 consecutive months of residence, you obviously have more information, when they start to play in the Tupís? In the radio interview they said that in December 2017 they went to the practice, and later received a phone call than in March 2018 they had to be in Brazil.

I don't disagree with you. Not sure if they already have, as they debuted against the Barbarians last November, that wasn't capped. But as they are young CBRu probably want to develop them. It is like Devon Muller, that played for Brazil U20s against Argentine clubs and only non-test matches for the Tupis (like against the Maoris). However, Muller is already eligible and we can see him in the July tests. De Wet went to Brazil to play for the Armstrong Dragons (a crazy story of a English that created a short-lived professional team in Brazilian Northeast in 2014). He qualified by residence with the old rule.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 19:12

victorsra wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
victorsra wrote:In rugby, because some countries do active poaching.

You can consider Ramirez and Moreno poaches, but that's definitly not what happened with the other players. In other words, people look at Brazil and say "oh, their junior rugby is bad, therefore their national team is artificial". And that's not true. Obviously if we compare to Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, we are basicaly the only ones finding players abroad, but at least the approach is to search for the diaspora.


I consider poach the action and how it happened in that case. I don't know if both players had the 36 consecutive months of residence, you obviously have more information, when they start to play in the Tupís? In the radio interview they said that in December 2017 they went to the practice, and later received a phone call than in March 2018 they had to be in Brazil.

I don't disagree with you. Not sure if they already have, as they debuted against the Barbarians, that wasn't capped. But as they are young CBRu probably want to develop them. It is like Devon Muller, that played for Brazil U20s against Argentine clubs and only non-test matches for the Tupis (like against the Maoris). However, Muller is already eligible and we can see him in the July tests.


Yes, after I asked, I remembered that you had put the player's caps and I went to look.

From my perspective, I consider it as poach, because it is not that the player continued his career in another country and then was selected, all the action is born from the National Union, they look players, later assuring them that in the future they will play in the national team, they are send to a club that the national Union want, and when they meet the requirements, they jump into the field.

The problem is if this practice becomes habitual to the CBRu, looking for players without any connection more than being chosen by the CBRu to represent the Tupís.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 19:21

Yes, I agree. That's the first time the action came from CBRu, in fact. Until now they only prospected the diaspora.

BTW, it is not new Brazilian clubs looking at Argentine young players offering house and schoolarships. There have been some playing here in such conditions. But still few, as our clubs have no $.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 22:45

victorsra wrote:Why are you saying poaching?

Sincerely, I dont know yet these two new players backgrounds. But 100% of players Brazil brought recently from Argentina are sons of Brazilians: Stefano Giantorno, Yan Rosetti and Caique Silva. Cbru's policy has been the sons of the diaspora. Sancerys, Bourda-Couhet, Massari, Dell'Acqua, Fiori, Harvey, all sons of Brazilians... And Reeves came to Brasil because he married a Brazilian. So, not random "poach".


Speaking of Reeves, is he playing in SLAR?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 22:55

Yes, but still TBA
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 17 Feb 2020, 06:24

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 18 Feb 2020, 09:05

A few pictures from the Selknam practice

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 18 Feb 2020, 09:33

They have the most boring shirts I've seen for a long time.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 18 Feb 2020, 13:41

You should pay attention in MLR's Rugby ATL. THAT is boring.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 18 Feb 2020, 13:47

victorsra wrote:You should pay attention in MLR's Rugby ATL. THAT is boring.


The franchise leads in worst name ever, but I actually do like their jerseys. They don't look like from the late 90ies like the ones above.

Image
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 18 Feb 2020, 16:18

Maybe the kits won't look so "late 90s" once they are stamped with sponsor brand logos all over the place like they do in Europe.

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