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Small news

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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 18:55

Canalina wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:I preferred Bristol Shoguns to Bristol Bears, but that was just a sponsorship name. Bristol are probably relieved they don't have a sort of medieval Japanese mascot now.
Gloucester changed their badge and not for the better. Their new badge is pretty dull.
Devon doesn't have an obvious animal to use as a mascot. Exeter was the the site of a Roman garrison so they could name themselves Exeter Legionaries. The Devon coat of arms has a leg lion, a Devonshire Bull, a sea lion and a Dartmoor Pony. I think a pony is the best option. But they shouldn't call themselves Exeter Ponies. How about Exeter Mustangs?

They could call Mustangs the first team, "Colts" the under teams, "Ponies" the kids and "Mares" (I've checked google translate) the women team :)


I think this is a good idea. But I think mare is an insult for a woman. Fillies would be a better name for the women's team.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 19:13

Canalina wrote:An hypothetical "Eastern people anti-diffamation league" could say that "Barbarians" is an offensive name, because it renovates the stereotype of the people from eastern Europe and middle Asia as rude, violent and obtuse (it seems that the latine name "Barbar" intended referring to the unintelligible language of those people, like a rude babbling "bar bar bar"); if we wanted to be petty I don't think it's much different from a politically incorrect nickname like "redskin".
And in Italy we have a famigerate association called Codacons (committee for the defense of the consumers) that sues almost everyone; several years ago they sued even Schumacher because he voluntarily let Barrichello surpassing him, this affecting the people who bet on the race. I'm pretty sure that if they were aware of the existence of the Harlequins they at least would make a drooling thought about suing them...

Sorry, no. It is not a nowadays identity. Native American is.

And all "nations" in Western Europe (including Italy) are also Barbarians, as ALL European nations (maybe Nordics apart) are a mix of Romans (and their slaves), pre-Roman peoples (Greeks, Celts, etc) and "Barbarians" (vague name for Franks, Slavs, Vandals, Goths, etc etc) that entered the Roman empire or others non-Roman areas during Antiquity + peoples like Arabs (Iberian Peninsula, Sicily), Turks (Balcanic Peninsula), etc that entered Europe in Medieval times, etc etc etc.

Which means "Barbarian" doesn't belong exclusively to Eastern Europe. What is "Italian"? A Roman + Goth (Barbarian) + Celt, Greek, etc...
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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 19:39

These are themes with few certainties, you may see them from a point of view and you see a thing, than you change point of view and you see an other thing. It's not a matter of "sorry, no." or "sorry, yes." but a matter of "maybe yes" or "maybe no".
Who decided the criterion that just a nowadays identity is sensitive to offenses? And who decided that "barbarian" is not a nowadays identity and that german or slavic people can't still feel part of the cultural world called by the Romans "barbarian"?
An what is "native american"? People coming maybe from Asia through the Bering isthmus, after having maybe migrated there from Africa during thousands of years and innumerable fusions between innumerable tribes; and nowadays they are largely fused with the rest of USA people. So if barbarian is not, is "native american" a real current identity?

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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 19:47

Canalina wrote:These are themes with few certainties, you may see them from a point of view and you see a thing, than you change point of view and you see an other thing. It's not a matter of "sorry, no." or "sorry, yes." but a matter of "maybe yes" or "maybe no".
Who decided the criterion that just a nowadays identity is sensitive to offenses? And who decided that "barbarian" is not a nowadays identity and that german or slavic people can't still feel part of the cultural world called by the Romans "barbarian"?
An what is "native american"? People coming maybe from Asia through the Bering isthmus, after having maybe migrated there from Africa during thousands of years and innumerable fusions between innumerable tribes; and nowadays they are largely fused with the rest of USA people. So if barbarian is not, is "native american" a real current identity?


I agree with you Canalina. Are you offended that the mascot for Bath is a Roman lion called Maximus? A think you are not. But if you, and a handful of other Italians, decided that was disrespectful and insulting of your heritage then suddenly Maximus the Lion will be sacked, just like Exeter's Big Chief. And it might not even be you deciding that. It might be a group of intellectuals deciding that on your behalf, people who aren't themselves Native Americans or Italians, being offended for you.

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Re: Small news

Postby ficcp » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 19:57

Do not forget Central and Southamerica. There are millions of pure native americans. The name SELKNAM ,of the chilean franchise, has the advantage that nobody can claim cultural appropriation, because that ethnic is extinguished. Nevertheless, there are Mapuches, Huilliches, Atacameños and Aymaras who are native americans of Chile.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 20:55

Are you offended that the mascot for Bath is a Roman lion called Maximus? A think you are not.

UK is also Roman - and Barbarian. Roman identity is not just Italian, it is Pan-European/Mediterranean. Just like Barbarian is Pan-European. Italians are as Barbarians as Germans or Slavs, after all Italians aren't "pure Romans". You are all a product of a long centuries mix, slavery, wars and conquest, immigration. Britain was part of Roman Empire, Italy was once an Ostro-Gothic (Barbarian) kingdom. "Barbarians" and "Romans" are identities that belong to the whole region because they shaped Europe.

Canalina wrote:These are themes with few certainties, you may see them from a point of view and you see a thing, than you change point of view and you see an other thing. It's not a matter of "sorry, no." or "sorry, yes." but a matter of "maybe yes" or "maybe no".
Who decided the criterion that just a nowadays identity is sensitive to offenses? And who decided that "barbarian" is not a nowadays identity and that german or slavic people can't still feel part of the cultural world called by the Romans "barbarian"?
An what is "native american"? People coming maybe from Asia through the Bering isthmus, after having maybe migrated there from Africa during thousands of years and innumerable fusions between innumerable tribes; and nowadays they are largely fused with the rest of USA people. So if barbarian is not, is "native american" a real current identity?

Again, it is "sorry, no". That's my area, man, I work with this concepts for more than a decade. I'm not parachuting on this. There is vast literature about culture and identity formation processes not born yesterday. There are MANY aspects to discuss and there isn't a simple truth, but not "ucertain" the way you suggest.

"Native American" is vague, but the symbol used isn't. It is a reference of a very well designated group of people. The question is who can claim to be "Native American"? Some people preserved language and culture, some people mixed with others. Who can claim the identity is a deep problem ideed, but only in the "borderline". But there is no question of whom Exeter's symbol refers to. And that's also the answer of who can tell what is sensitive. It is the group referenced. The problem is not making a reference itself, it is how you use it.

Also, thank you to remember we are all humans with the same African origin... we all can name our team as Homo Sapiens RFC :lol:... Nations ARE creations, obviously. And culture is never pure, it is always a product of centuries of mix, contact, inspiration and domination. But groups create identities and others recognise them. Racism is a classical exemple of a fiction (race) transform into a real and harming way to categorise people. So, we are talking about a fiction very real in practical terms.

I'm obviously not discussing the theme, as it is much more deep and definitly not as "uncertain" as you claim. What I only meant is: any wise marketing department of a sports team must get away from controversy. It is bad strategic decision from Exeter. You only "fight" for a symbol if it realy means something to you. That's not Exeter's case, that decided over the Native American name as a random marketing decision.
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Re: Small news

Postby Hernan14 » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 01:57

Forse potrebbero essere chiamati Exeter Polentoni e come logo usano un "tano" affamato con un mestolo vuoto in mano (Perhaps they could be called Exeter Polentoni and as a logo use a hungry "tano" with a empty ladle in his hand)...Surely Canalina wouldn't be offended by that...

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 07:43

Arlecchino is the most known character of "Commedia dell'Arte", a street form of comedy born during the Renaissance; the most general character of the Commedia dell'Arte was Zanni (it means "John"), a smart but perennially hungry servant, all the actions of which are directed to one only goal: the food. Arlecchino is just a particular type of Zanni and, as the Zannis, he was born in Northern Italy, the land of polenta. So basically the "hungry polentone" logo is already there, in the Harlequins club

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 14:29

From Wiki:

"The name Harlequin is taken from that of a mischievous "devil" or "demon" character in popular French passion plays. It originates with an Old French term herlequin, hellequin, first attested in the 11th century, by the chronicler Orderic Vitalis, who recounts a story of a monk who was pursued by a troop of demons when wandering on the coast of Normandy (France ) at night.[5][6] These demons were led by a masked, club-wielding giant and they were known as familia herlequin (var. familia herlethingi). This medieval French version of the Germanic Wild Hunt, Mesnée d'Hellequin, has been connected to the English figure of Herla cyning ("host-king"; German Erlkönig).[7] Hellequin was depicted as a black-faced emissary of the devil, roaming the countryside with a group of demons chasing the damned souls of evil people to Hell. The physical appearance of Hellequin offers an explanation for the traditional colours of Harlequin's red-and-black mask.[8][9] The name's origin could also be traced to a knight from the 9th century, Hellequin of Boulogne, who died fighting the Normans and originated a legend of devils.[10] Cantos XXI and XXII from Dante's Inferno there is a devil by the name of Alichino.[5][11] The similarities between the devil in Dante's Inferno and the Arlecchino are more than cosmetic and that the prank like antics of the devils in the aforementioned antics reflect some carnivalesque aspects.[11]

The first known appearance on stage of Hellequin is dated to 1262, the character of a masked and hooded devil in Jeu da la Feuillière by Adam de la Halle, and it became a stock character in French passion plays.[12]."

And "The Harlequin character first appeared in England early in the 17th century and took centre stage in the derived genre of the Harlequinade, developed in the early 18th century by John Rich.[4] As the Harlequinade portion of English dramatic genre pantomime developed, Harlequin was routinely paired with the character Clown. As developed by Joseph Grimaldi around 1800, Clown became the mischievous and brutish foil for the more sophisticated Harlequin, who became more of a romantic character. The most influential such in Victorian England were William Payne and his sons the Payne Brothers, the latter active during the 1860s and 1870s".

Oh... Europe.... culture circulates...
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Re: Small news

Postby Figaro » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 15:49

Surely the Roman association with Bath RFC is because of the significant Roman remains in the city, and thus very much referring to a local connection.

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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 16:04

Figaro wrote:Surely the Roman association with Bath RFC is because of the significant Roman remains in the city, and thus very much referring to a local connection.


Yes that is right. I am pretty sure the reason for Bath existing and being a city is thanks to the Romans.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 16:38

Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....
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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 17:15

victorsra wrote:Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....


This is true but the barbarians destroyed Britannia, even worse than what happened in continental Europe. Latin was lost to Britain for hundreds of years before it started to return through the church and then with the Normans. But there is no resentment. The Romans, Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings, were all brutal invaders, but they are also what made us who we are. Also it all happened a long time ago. We've probably had an easier recent history than most other countries. Most of our really bad times were our own fault, having civil wars etc.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 17:59

Wars and political disruption doesn't mean people disappeared, totaly evaporated. There is killing, yes, but a lot of subjugation, assimiliation in either pacific or violent ways. Poltiical and social history are different things. The silent history of common ilterate people is not the same of their rulers. Political history was written focused on rulers, not common people. These are centuries-long processes that are not mere replacement of peoples. Fusion operates in many ways and the language being a mix of everything shows this. Like many other customs and concepts (from law, religion, cultural references...). Everybody in Europe is a product of intense mix. Nobody is "pure".
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Re: Small news

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 21:23

And the Brazilian federation chose Tupis, I don't think it's disrespectful either.

The only one that is horrible is the Cleveland Indians logo.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 22:20

But what is the Brazilian people if not a mix of Indigenous, Africans and Europeans (with a bit of Asians)? The typical Brazilian is the product of 5 centuries of indigenous-african-european mix. Tupis are not a specific tribe, they are a large group that heavily influenced Brazilian culture, Brazilian Portuguese language (specialy place names, but not only), etc... it is part of national identity.

Nevertheless, I'm becoming more critical of the use of Tupi now, because it has never been used as a statement of that we are tributaries to the Tupian culture. It is just an empty symbol, unfortunatly, and in a country with genocidal tendencies...
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Re: Small news

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 02 Aug 2020, 14:39

Canalina wrote:An hypothetical "Eastern people anti-diffamation league" could say that "Barbarians" is an offensive name, because it renovates the stereotype of the people from eastern Europe and middle Asia as rude, violent and obtuse (it seems that the latine name "Barbar" intended referring to the unintelligible language of those people, like a rude babbling "bar bar bar"); if we wanted to be petty I don't think it's much different from a politically incorrect nickname like "redskin".
And in Italy we have a famigerate association called Codacons (committee for the defense of the consumers) that sues almost everyone; several years ago they sued even Schumacher because he voluntarily let Barrichello surpassing him, this affecting the people who bet on the race. I'm pretty sure that if they were aware of the existence of the Harlequins they at least would make a drooling thought about suing them...


Okay, find that group and get them to make convincing good faith arguments on their own merits. We can then consider it.

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Sun, 02 Aug 2020, 15:47

Jawohl !

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Re: Small news

Postby Figaro » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 13:03

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....


This is true but the barbarians destroyed Britannia, even worse than what happened in continental Europe. Latin was lost to Britain for hundreds of years before it started to return through the church and then with the Normans. But there is no resentment. The Romans, Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings, were all brutal invaders, but they are also what made us who we are. Also it all happened a long time ago. We've probably had an easier recent history than most other countries. Most of our really bad times were our own fault, having civil wars etc.


Actually the concept of 'Britain' wasn't destroyed, it merely evolved. The parts of the island of Britain that weren't conquered by the Saxons (i.e. Wales, and Cornwall) continuted to refer to themselves as Britons - i.e. the native peoples of the Island of Britain ("Ynys Prydain") - until relatively recently (even as late as the 17th-18th century); and in writing by Welsh people and about Wales there's a clear continuity of identity between the pre-Roman Celtic Britons and the modern Welsh.

It was only when the Victorians started to push the idea of "Britain" as modern state, that the Welsh stopped referring to themselves as Britons and started referring to themselves as Cymry, using "Prydain" in the modern sense to refer to what we'd all refer to as Britain now.

This is why you sometimes see it claimed that Welsh one of / the oldest language(s) in Europe, even though in actual fact like all languages it is evolving all the time. Modern Welsh actually has a huge quantity of Latin vocabulary in it, even more than English does, and there are probably far more words in Welsh with a latin origin than with Celtic origins (only words for really ancient things like "rock" and "tree" tend to be Celtic). In this respect Welsh is completely different to Irish and Scots Gaelic, both of which have almost no Latin element at all and are really not at all mutually intelligible with Welsh. So in that sense Latin wasn't lost at all.

The words that modern English and Welsh use to refer to each other reflect some of that history. The English words "Wales" and "Welsh" come from a germanic root meaning "foreign place / land of the foreigner", visible also in other places on the borders of German speaking areas: Wallonia (Belgium) and Wallachia (Romania). The Welsh "Cymry" by contrast comes from a Celtic/latin term for friend, the same as the root for "comrade". And the modern Welsh term for the English, Saeson, is obviously from Saxon.
Last edited by Figaro on Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 13:06

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....


This is true but the barbarians destroyed Britannia, even worse than what happened in continental Europe. Latin was lost to Britain for hundreds of years before it started to return through the church and then with the Normans. But there is no resentment. The Romans, Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings, were all brutal invaders, but they are also what made us who we are. Also it all happened a long time ago. We've probably had an easier recent history than most other countries. Most of our really bad times were our own fault, having civil wars etc.


Actually the concept of 'Britain' wasn't destroyed, it merely evolved. The parts of the island of Britain that weren't conquered by the Saxons (i.e. Wales, and Cornwall) continuted to refer to themselves as Britons - i.e. the native peoples of the Island of Britain ("Ynys Prydain") - until relatively recently (even as late as the 17th-18th century); and in writing by Welsh people and about Wales there's a clear continuity of identity between the pre-Roman Celtic Britons and the modern Welsh.

It was only when the Victorians started to push the idea of "Britain" as modern state, that the Welsh stopped referring to themselves as Britons and started referring to themselves as Cymry, using "Prydain" in the modern sense to refer to what we'd all refer to as Britain now.

This is why you sometimes see it claimed that Welsh one of / the oldest language(s) in Europe, even though in actual fact like all languages it is evolving all the time. Modern Welsh actually has a huge quantity of Latin vocabulary in it, even more than English does, and there are probably far more words in Welsh with a latin origin than with Celtic origins (only words for really ancient things like "rock" and "tree" tend to be Celtic). In this respect Welsh is completely different to Irish and Scots Gaelic, both of which have almost no Latin element at all and are really not at all mutually intelligible with Welsh. So in that sense Latin wasn't lost at all.


OK fair enough. I was being Anglocentric. We do that a lot, us English. I don't know if you've noticed.

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Re: Small news

Postby Figaro » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 13:08

Chester-Donnelly wrote:OK fair enough. I was being Anglocentric. We do that a lot, us English. I don't know if you've noticed.


:lol:
Once or twice!

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 14:37

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....


This is true but the barbarians destroyed Britannia, even worse than what happened in continental Europe. Latin was lost to Britain for hundreds of years before it started to return through the church and then with the Normans. But there is no resentment. The Romans, Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings, were all brutal invaders, but they are also what made us who we are. Also it all happened a long time ago. We've probably had an easier recent history than most other countries. Most of our really bad times were our own fault, having civil wars etc.


Actually the concept of 'Britain' wasn't destroyed, it merely evolved. The parts of the island of Britain that weren't conquered by the Saxons (i.e. Wales, and Cornwall) continuted to refer to themselves as Britons - i.e. the native peoples of the Island of Britain ("Ynys Prydain") - until relatively recently (even as late as the 17th-18th century); and in writing by Welsh people and about Wales there's a clear continuity of identity between the pre-Roman Celtic Britons and the modern Welsh.

It was only when the Victorians started to push the idea of "Britain" as modern state, that the Welsh stopped referring to themselves as Britons and started referring to themselves as Cymry, using "Prydain" in the modern sense to refer to what we'd all refer to as Britain now.

This is why you sometimes see it claimed that Welsh one of / the oldest language(s) in Europe, even though in actual fact like all languages it is evolving all the time. Modern Welsh actually has a huge quantity of Latin vocabulary in it, even more than English does, and there are probably far more words in Welsh with a latin origin than with Celtic origins (only words for really ancient things like "rock" and "tree" tend to be Celtic). In this respect Welsh is completely different to Irish and Scots Gaelic, both of which have almost no Latin element at all and are really not at all mutually intelligible with Welsh. So in that sense Latin wasn't lost at all.


OK fair enough. I was being Anglocentric. We do that a lot, us English. I don't know if you've noticed.


Not surprisingly the Romans moved away from Scotland and never settled there, while Ireland was never part of the Roman empire. Wales was.
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Re: Small news

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 14:55

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Exeter too (Isca). London was Roman (Londinium), York (Eburacum).... Manchester was the place of a Roman fort (Mamucium)... and etc etc.... after all, you were Britannia. The English language is heaviy influenced by Latin, it is a fusion of Germanic and Latin, with Celtic and Nordic elements....


This is true but the barbarians destroyed Britannia, even worse than what happened in continental Europe. Latin was lost to Britain for hundreds of years before it started to return through the church and then with the Normans. But there is no resentment. The Romans, Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings, were all brutal invaders, but they are also what made us who we are. Also it all happened a long time ago. We've probably had an easier recent history than most other countries. Most of our really bad times were our own fault, having civil wars etc.


Actually the concept of 'Britain' wasn't destroyed, it merely evolved. The parts of the island of Britain that weren't conquered by the Saxons (i.e. Wales, and Cornwall) continuted to refer to themselves as Britons - i.e. the native peoples of the Island of Britain ("Ynys Prydain") - until relatively recently (even as late as the 17th-18th century); and in writing by Welsh people and about Wales there's a clear continuity of identity between the pre-Roman Celtic Britons and the modern Welsh.

It was only when the Victorians started to push the idea of "Britain" as modern state, that the Welsh stopped referring to themselves as Britons and started referring to themselves as Cymry, using "Prydain" in the modern sense to refer to what we'd all refer to as Britain now.

This is why you sometimes see it claimed that Welsh one of / the oldest language(s) in Europe, even though in actual fact like all languages it is evolving all the time. Modern Welsh actually has a huge quantity of Latin vocabulary in it, even more than English does, and there are probably far more words in Welsh with a latin origin than with Celtic origins (only words for really ancient things like "rock" and "tree" tend to be Celtic). In this respect Welsh is completely different to Irish and Scots Gaelic, both of which have almost no Latin element at all and are really not at all mutually intelligible with Welsh. So in that sense Latin wasn't lost at all.


OK fair enough. I was being Anglocentric. We do that a lot, us English. I don't know if you've noticed.


Not surprisingly the Romans moved away from Scotland and never settled there, while Ireland was never part of the Roman empire. Wales was.


No one knows what the language of the Picts was, but it may have been similar to the language of the Brythonic Britons in occupied Briton, without the Latin. It is also not know to what extent were Germanic languages spoken in Roman Britain. Parts of Southern Britain was ruled by the Belgie before the Romans invaded, and there could have been significant numbers of settled Angles, Saxons etc. in eastern Britain. No one knows what were the dominant languages in eastern Britain when the Romans arrived in Britain, or when they left. Local spoken languages were not written so it is impossible to know.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 17:21

Welsh and Cornish are of the same family of Breton (French Gaelic), while Scottish and Irish Gaelic are a different Celtic group. It is likely that England had a Celtic language of the same family of Welsh and Cornish.

It is not totaly impossible. Linguistics have many tools to identify influences. It is usualy related to words that lasted, archaeologic presence of cultural groups and etc. Obviously it gives you strong theories, not the absolute truth.
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Re: Small news

Postby Figaro » Tue, 04 Aug 2020, 06:35

victorsra wrote:Not surprisingly the Romans moved away from Scotland and never settled there, while Ireland was never part of the Roman empire. Wales was.


Indeed, though some parts of the south of Scotland were briefly Roman and they had planned to launch an invasion of Ireland (from Wales) which never happened.

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